Bridging the Gaps: Reimagining Opioid Recovery
A podcast where we confront disparities, challenge outdated approaches, and reimagine a future where opioid addiction treatment is equitable, accessible, and effective for all communities."
Bridging the Gaps: Reimagining Opioid Recovery
Confronting Systemic Barriers: A Conversation on Mental Health and Racial Justice
Racial equity in mental health requires more than diversity initiatives—it demands a fundamental reimagining of how we approach care, advocacy, and community partnership. In this thoughtful conversation with therapist Joanna Rosa, we unpack the complex interplay between public health perspectives and mental health outcomes in communities of color.
"As a Black woman, I know I'm impacted similarly," Joanna shares, reflecting on how social determinants of health—housing insecurity, transportation barriers, food access—create chronic distress that traditional therapeutic approaches often fail to address. Her background in psychology and co-occurring counseling, combined with her current doctoral studies in public health, offers a unique lens through which to examine these intersections.
The conversation delves into what meaningful advocacy looks like in challenging times. Joanna emphasizes the importance of understanding your bandwidth, following your passion, and knowing your lane—wisdom particularly valuable for Black professionals navigating systems not designed with them in mind. "Your advocacy doesn't always have to be large," she notes, reminding listeners that smaller wins are equally important and that sometimes the quietest voices make the most significant impact.
For clinicians serving diverse communities, the path forward requires both professional development and personal growth. "You need to understand where your discomfort is," Joanna advises, highlighting how providers must learn to sit with discomfort rather than taking clients' experiences of racial trauma personally. This self-awareness forms the foundation for truly equitable care.
Perhaps most powerfully, the discussion explores how community-driven approaches offer alternatives to top-down mental health systems. By collaborating with grassroots organizations and centering community voices, providers can help create services that genuinely meet people where they are. As Joanna puts it, "Understanding what the community wants and needs, not what we're thinking they want and need as clinicians" is essential to building trust and delivering effective care.
What small step can you take today to advance equity in mental health? Whether you're a provider, community member, or simply someone who cares, your voice matters and has the power to create meaningful change.
Welcome to the Bridging the Gaps Reimagining Opioid Recovery the podcast where we confront disparities, challenge outdated approaches and reimagine a future where opioid addiction treatment is equitable, accessible and effective for all communities Across Minnesota and beyond. Opioid addiction continues to devastate lives, especially in marginalized and underserved communities. But here we're not just talking about the problem. We're bringing together experts, community leaders and lived experience voices to drive real solutions. Join us as we explore groundbreaking strategies, highlight innovative recovery models and amplify the voices of those fighting for equity in addiction care, because when we bridge the gaps, we build pathways to healing.
Speaker 1:This is Joanna Rosa, a duly licensed therapist, and I'm interested in chatting with community members about the intersections of well-being, recovery and living our daily lives. Join us for a conversation with members of Project Echo Fellowship, a group of community leaders working at the intersections of healthcare, substance use treatment and recovery. Enjoy our conversation. This podcast episode will be slightly different. Our plan was to record part two of the Racism in Recovery series and had invited members of the Little Earth community to share their lived experiences. Before we begin today's episode, we want to take time to pause and acknowledge the deep grief in the Little Earth community, who are mourning the recent losses of beloved family and friends whose lives made a lasting impact on those around them. Our hearts go out to their family and we want to hold space for community and grief.
Speaker 2:Hi Joanna. Hello, how does it feel to be on the other side of the mic?
Speaker 1:Very weird.
Speaker 2:Very weird Used to being in the background. I'm used to being in the background. We're switching things up a little bit. As we said, we want to get let the audience really get to know who you are, Cause I don't think we did a proper introduction. We just jump right in and start doing our thing. So tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, where you hail from, what are you representing?
Speaker 1:Okay, I was born and raised in New York City and moved here in 2001. So it's been a while. So Minnesota is where I call home, minneapolis, and this journey has been quite convoluted. Yet it was always leading me here. So I originally started school because I wanted to be a nurse, and then I interviewed some nurses and then I realized that is not where I belong. So then I changed tracks and I started down the psychology road and realized that I think this was where I was meant to be. And so I have an undergrad in psychology focusing on coaching psych and organizational psych. So I did a little bit of both. And then I went to Metro State here in St Paul for the co-occurring counseling program, loved it there, and that's where I really found my niche. In terms of what I do now, I think I do a little bit of everything.
Speaker 2:Like what.
Speaker 1:Ooh okay, so I'm a therapist at Empower Therapeutic Support Services and so I see children, adults, families, couples, and it has been just a really incredible journey to share space with people who are looking to change their lives, and so that has been an absolute honor. And yeah, just mental health has been a really interesting theme in my life, not only right from the familial sense and seeing undiagnosed or less treated mental health symptoms with my own family. Yet looking at the state of the world as a Black woman and going what is actually happening here, what is happening in our community, what's happening on the news, how are we being represented? And so from a young age, I was always asking why are things the way they are? And so I think my main motivation for doing what I do is just asking why and then encouraging others to be curious and asking why as well in their own lives.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's awesome. So you talk about a lot of your passion about racial equity. I know you, so, audience, if you're looking to see if I know this woman. I know her. I've been knowing her for a while, but I know she's very passionate about racial equity. What led you to your focus on racial equity, mental health and through a public health lens?
Speaker 1:Is again asking why are things the way they are? Why are certain people treated differently for the color of their skin? Why are systems designed to disenfranchise based on skin color or racial or ethnic attributes? And so I've always been interested in understanding how the absence of racial equity impacts a system that ultimately disenfranchises, underserves, disproportionately impacts communities of color. Now I took a weird and unique view on this and I added a public health perspective, because I think there is a lot more to think about when it comes to mental health that sometimes we are not taught in school, Because social determinants of health, those things like having reliable transportation, being able to afford groceries, instability in housing those significantly impact mental health as well.
Speaker 1:Yet sometimes it feels like the mental health field is a little bit more passive in that way and that, yes, we recognize it, but there's nothing we can do.
Speaker 1:And so I've always been interested in challenging that and saying I sit in a position of power. As a licensed therapist, I have 20, 30% of power that I can utilize on my client's behalf to say hey, if you're struggling to get to the pharmacy just to fill your prescription because it's a 30-day, how can we advocate with your doctor to say, hey, could you do a 90-day instead? That means less trips to the pharmacy, and then they're also not experiencing interruptions in their medication, because that's what doctors are focused on, right is medication adherence and adherence to that plan. Yet there are more factors that need to be looked at in terms of overall wellness, and so that got me on the road to public health, and so right now I'm at the Medical College of Wisconsin in their DRPH program. So Doctor of Public Health, because I really want to work on and I want my legacy to look at how do I incorporate a public health lens to mental health care?
Speaker 2:Okay, how do you cover the racial equity piece in mental health? How do you define that and how does that differ from concept to diversity and inclusion?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh okay. So racial equity first of all. It's really like this process of eliminating racial disparities to improve overall outcomes for everyone, right, it's not just about a race or ethnicity, but it's really looking at that. This is an intentional and continuous practice of challenging and with the hopes of changing policies, practices. And with the hopes of changing policies, practices, systems and structures, because you're prioritizing that measurable change for the lives of people in color, right, that then translate to everyone winning.
Speaker 1:And there was some people doing some really great work in that space, but I think there was a vagueness to it that we didn't always talk about, and so sometimes the DEI got confused and so there wasn't a lot of clarity around that. And so diversity is like looking at racial or ethnic identities or characteristics right, but diversity is something you can measure. It can be a measurable outcome. Or ethnic identities or characteristics right, but diversity is something you can measure, it can be a measurable outcome. And then inclusion is like another measurable outcome, but it's about increasing representation and so having more diversity. Yet the way that was done in spaces, it could be really transformative or it could be performative. And so now that we're in the political climate that we're in. I know there is a lot of trepidation about really adhering to the fundamental practice of inclusion, which is that everybody has a seat at the table, everyone has a voice, and being able to stand for that right now, it's really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It's very difficult. What are some of the systemic barriers impacting mental health outcomes in communities of color?
Speaker 1:I'm going to go from a public health perspective. It again is those social determinants of health. Again is those social determinants of health, so having access to reliable transportation, having access to nutritious food, having access to healthcare, not having disruptions right, and those things that we need to thrive. And right now there are disruptions all over the map for communities of color in terms of what we need to survive and thrive. And so that's been the hardest piece, and I've seen it in my own work, where these disruptions are causing some really chronic distress. And then how do we manage that as part of the mental health work as well, because, as a Black woman, I know I'm impacted similarly.
Speaker 1:Yet when I see people in the space, sometimes we're sharing the same struggles, or sometimes it's just slightly different, yet it's the same feelings, the same distress, and so what do we do in order to really fundamentally pick through what is a crisis and how do we overcome that? And so, from a public health perspective, the federal minimum wage is $7.25. If it was raised to $15 an hour, we would have one in four people who were making minimum wage actually move up the federal poverty line, and so they would be out of poverty. That would make a significant difference, and so, from a mental health perspective, right now you have a wage that is livable. Now you have right consistency in terms of what if that was providing your health care, the work. So now you have consistent health care coverage, you have better opportunity to address some of those challenges like transportation, et cetera, and so I think it's just more than mental health symptomology alone for communities of color right now.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have two follow-up questions. Okay, so can you be more specific about the distractions? That's one part of the question. The second part, I probably should wait.
Speaker 1:Okay, distracted. There is a lot of noise right now in the world and it can be hard to really focus on what's important, because sometimes people get really distracted by the chaos, the noise, the distraction, and, from an administration standpoint, I think that's part of the point is to cause as much chaos as possible so that other things are being dismantled in the background, and so one of the things that I encourage people who are really struggling with, like watching the news or keeping up on stuff like that, is to disconnect in order to recenter. And how do we find joy in these uncertain times? Because it's this joy that's going to carry us through.
Speaker 2:And the part two of that question is so I've been doing a lot of reading on small towns and just thinking about people who live in small towns, and we have a huge African-American community down South that live in these small towns. If you talk about increasing the wage to $15 an hour at the federal level, how would that impact these folks who are living in small towns, who the cost of living is not as high, and so that's something I've been thinking about and rolling around in my head. I always try to think like how to think about something beyond my understanding of what's in front of my face how those folks in the small town are going to be able to manage $15 an hour.
Speaker 1:That's a great question, and I've always been a city gal. So small town or rural communities making more, and what would that look like? Actually, I'm curious to know if the audience might be able to weigh in on that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that would be a great perspective, because I yeah, I will have.
Speaker 1:I have no problem saying I don't know. That is a great question, and so I'd be curious if we can open up something like a chat and then throw that question in, because I'd love to learn as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of times we forget about when we, if you're living in the city, we forget about the small town people, and really those folks are farmers, are like these small mom and pop shops that support a lot of our folks who are elderly, because a lot of those people in those small towns are elderly people and their points of view might be totally different ours.
Speaker 1:So how would they handle having a raise in wages? Cool, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, We'll see. They're probably having a good time. Oh, we can get more stuff now or we can do more things. The next question is how does public health, a public health approach, help us better understand the mental health challenges that these communities face communities of color you can even talk about small towns if you want to dig into that, so we can get everybody in this conversation and what I know of rural communities, there's a lack of access.
Speaker 1:Yet from a public health perspective, it's really looking at systems, and how do systems leverage resources in order to reach communities that are disproportionately affected and so I'll be more specific disproportionately affected right by racism, by racism, discrimination, and that's why it's been fascinating to me to look at mental health from a public health lens, because the mental health field is another system as well and how do we, rather than being a bit more passive, take a more active approach to addressing the mental health symptomologies that we see every day? One of the things that I like to look at from a systems perspective is a person's full family unit, social life. What does that look like? What does the everyday experience look like for them, and what's causing pressure and what's causing some really great growth to happen? What's stunting growth?
Speaker 1:And I'm one of those people that I'm not confident that system change can happen, especially in this climate. Yet how do individuals feel empowered to create change? And so that is the distinction that I have been able to pivot is that it's not always systems responding, because they don't necessarily have the tools or they're not built that way, and so if the system can't provide certain resources, how do we empower individuals in order to create that change or have that growth?
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to say system change is happening in this climate. Okay, but it's happening in a way we haven't experienced before, although I don't understand how that change is happening, but I'm open to anybody who wants to clarify how. The changes that we're having right now, how is it better for all Americans and I think that is the biggest piece that we have to explore when we're talking about systems change how is it impacting all Americans? We're not a monolith. The Black community is not a monolith, and so we have folks who are very well off in some. In most parts like what we are talking about may not resonate with them. That's not their lived experience. And so how do you address that and send that talk to have open up the conversation about disparities and how the these social determinants with folks who probably don't even have that issue because they're financially okay?
Speaker 1:absolutely they exist. But again, I'll challenge you, and I think that community is starting to take matters in their own hands and there isn't a lot of faith in systems change, and so that's why I'm just like, if the system's not going to change, what can I do? And so that's why I look at an individual perspective. What can I do in order to at least be part of that change?
Speaker 2:Okay, you didn't answer my question, but I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1:You didn't answer my question but I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:But you know what. We're going to leave it to our audience and we're very open to people signing off on this. I think we should get a lot of feedback. Okay, we talked about social determinants in housing, a little bit in housing, and I think we can cover that a little bit more. We talked about income and poverty and how that impacts social determinants and I would also like to talk about how social determinants play in shaping in education like play in shaping mental health disparities in education, because we're it's more now than ever school-based mental health disparities in education, because we're it's more now than ever school-based mental health and for providers to understand that, how those social determinants impact students' learning, education, x, y and Z. You know where I'm going with this, so let's start with the housing. So how does those, what's the role of social determinants, of health and how like impact in housing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's take our own city of Minneapolis as an example. Right, we have more private firms buying single-family homes, which then price out families who could otherwise afford a home. We have less affordable housing. Now the percentage of new buildings with affordable housing that percentage is going down, and so we don't. We say there's a fix, but right, it's only a 25% fix, it's not a 50% or a 75 percent fix, and so that's the piece where I'm always eager to learn more about what we're saying we're going to do as a government or through a response is not necessarily what we actually do, and so how do we hold systems accountable for that kind of behavior?
Speaker 1:We don't really have a good track record for that, especially in Minneapolis, because we've been cycling through housing crises since the 40s, and we know that, as a student, if you don't have stable housing, that's obviously going to affect your ability to be a student. One of the things that I'm curious on, though, is that how are counseling or right therapeutic programs teaching about the impact of social determinants of health on clients, and I know Metro State did a wonderful job about breaking that down and standing 10 toes down on that that this affects our community, and so we have to incorporate that lens as you practice. I don't hear that much about other programs filtering in that kind of view, and so that could be a learning opportunity for programs to say how are we going to teach this? Because we can't assume the students just know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think with just finishing up my dissertation. It's, I think the curriculum is that we learn from is pretty much hard set. It's like you have to cover these things to be able to be accredited and then you move forward, like teachers or professors and instructors are moving forward with that curriculum and how do you know, like the future doctors, how do we write about this stuff? How do we get push this up the priority list for universities and programs to be able to adopt, looking at social determinants in their educating these new professionals? How do we cover it in our practicums? How do we cover it in our practicums? And when we're training students? How are we really embedding that into their internships, their practicums, so they'll be able to have that experience? To be truthful, like you can only cover so much in a curriculum or you'll be doing this for a long, like six or seven to eight years, yep.
Speaker 1:I do believe that, right, the schools have some say in how they create curriculums right and what components go in there. I know, in terms of accreditation, right, there are some standards that the school needs to meet, and so what percentage of those standards fall on right, covering topics of equity? But I know there are some equity-based work happening in schools. The other thing I want to point out, though you said during the practicum, there have been times where I've seen students come fresh out of their studies into practicum and, all of a sudden, are just hit with these very complex needs. So they're trying to fit what they learn from a textbook onto these very complex needs, and so we, as supervisors, are working diligently to say this is the real world. Yes, that's a text and that's a model or that's a technique. Yet what does it look like in real time with people who are experiencing such high and chronic stress?
Speaker 2:I would like to shift and I don't want to forget about our elementary kids and our high school folks, because what we are seeing, that is our future. And so, from a mental health standpoint, to be able to understand some of the struggles that some of the youth, these youth that that are coming through our educational system, that are most of the time underfunded, and when things are underfunded it's OK, this is a luxury. We're going to have to chop this. We may see a significant change in, at least in Minnesota, of how we deliver those services. I think people are working diligently in the background to really say mental health is a priority for the next generation. So you talk about these social determinants and the mental health disparities. How can you address that in this climate of cuts and trying to find dollars just to fund basic stuff? How can a provider in those schools or organizations in those schools be creative in addressing those disparities or social determinants?
Speaker 1:Yeah, First of all, I wish I had a magic wand to make all these funding cuts disappear, because our students are being impacted by these cuts. I have a couple of kiddos in the Minneapolis school district and so I'm keeping up on all that news on the cuts, right and the deficit and what's being proposed to be cut, and a lot of it is around like social, emotional health. A lot of it is about right, it's cultural, All of these cultural programs that they put in place to ensure Black and Brown student success. Those are the first things on the chopping block, and so I feel that very personally, and I as a parent, have been advocating in those spaces in order to see if our voices can be heard. So that way, if it's going to be cut, what's the least amount of cutting you can do, right From a creativity standpoint?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure how much leeway there mental health providers in school-based settings have. Yet one of the things that strongly speaks to me is forming collaborations, so that way we can at least bridge some of those gaps. So what kinds of relationships can we have in community that could offer alternatives to the students? If social-emotional learning and some of those programmings are being cut, how can we offer that in a different way? How can we partner?
Speaker 1:And I'm the kid of the 80s and I remember the school lunch and breakfast programs where they were very structured in order to provide that support, because right at least in New York, they understood that you can get a meal here and this is going to be a stable environment for you to do that, because a lot of us were in poverty. And so I always think about how do you then fill that gap in a creative way and bring people with you, because you don't have to do it by yourself. And so how do you partner? And the reason why I said I don't know how much leeway they have is sometimes schools have rules around like collaborations and stuff and partners and bringing people in, and so that then has to be right a collaboration between the mental health provider and the staff to say what could we do differently. And there are some schools that are very willing to bring community partners in and there are some that are not. So what kind of climate do you exist in?
Speaker 2:And take the temperature there to see if that's even a possibility mental health, then we'll wire it into, we'll pass it down to the social workers or we can cover social emotional learning with what teachers can teach.
Speaker 1:Our teachers train for that.
Speaker 2:Exactly, or do they want to do that? Did they sign up when they became a teacher?
Speaker 1:It's oh, by the way, you're going to be the social worker that they are, and everybody is, Because they're usually the first responder to these children when the child gets to the social worker. It's already two or three people that the teacher has had to engage in order to get that child to the social worker, and so is there bandwidth for the teachers to have that kind of training. Is that something right that is embedded in their training?
Speaker 2:Most teachers don't want to do it. They have a whole lot of things that they need to be doing and I don't know if I would want my teacher to be a therapist or I want them to be the best teacher they can be and if to be a listening ear, a mentor, a support like we we've had. We didn't have mental health in our school Like we we've had. We didn't have mental health in our school and I was going to schools in high school decades, a long time ago. What we did have was caring, supportive, all of the things that that work in therapy having a person to listen to you, validate you, support you, take care of you, advocate for you. Those teachers did that as a part of this is my personality and I care about the student.
Speaker 2:It's more of a natural relationship, rather than hey, we're going to write this curriculum, you're going to like it, and the student's going to like it too, and you're all going to learn it. And I need you to measure that, by the way, to make sure it's effective. I think that it gets complicated when you navigate social, emotional components into a curriculum. You can it is.
Speaker 1:It is very complicated.
Speaker 2:But it relies on the person who is actually following the curriculum and are they trained to deliver those outcomes?
Speaker 1:And what if a student is tired or hungry?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What if they're experiencing some stressors at home? That is a difficult position to be in.
Speaker 2:And you, yeah, that's a whole nother story.
Speaker 1:That's a whole nother conversation. So.
Speaker 2:I would love to like shift to clinical and provider advocacy. What are some of the actionable ways clinicians and providers can advocate for racial equity beyond the therapy role?
Speaker 1:Good question. I would ask, first of all, do they have the bandwidth for advocacy? In these times, right? A provider or clinician might not necessarily have the bandwidth for advocacy. So I want to start there and acknowledge that it is really difficult as a Black woman, right in this climate, to advocate. Yet I take my civic duty really seriously and so there are ways that I advocate on behalf of my clients and there are ways that sometimes I need to step back in order for self-care. And so I would ask if a clinician, a provider, has bandwidth to advocate, what would that look like for you?
Speaker 1:First of all, is it letter writing?
Speaker 1:Is it making a call to your legislator, congressman? Is it right active protesting out in the streets? Is it looking at your own organizations or encouraging your own organization to look at its own policies? Right, procedures, because that's a form of advocacy as saying what could we do differently? And some people have a little bit more leeway than others in their organization. Some organizations might be bigger and there has to be more protections in place from a public policy perspective.
Speaker 1:So I would say perspective. So I would say what way can you show up if you have that bandwidth to show up? And so I feel really strongly in learning the legislative process and advocating that way. When I can, through letter writing, calls and visiting my legislators, I volunteer right on some boards and committees because I feel that my time and my voice could lend to that space very well.
Speaker 1:And I would also caution asking if your advocacy is in support of or is helping that particular right issue or is it hindering, because sometimes we might want to advocate, yet it might not always look helpful, might not always feel helpful, and so I just want to open that up too, because doing something for the sake of doing something isn't necessarily healthy either right. And so when I look at advocacy, I look at it from a lens of is my voice going to support this thing in a positive way? Is it going to be constructive, or do I just need to close my mouth and just let things happen, because there really is no leeway in the conversation? And so that's how I preserve my bandwidth to fight another day. I recognize when there's a hill I can die on, when I need to take a step back.
Speaker 2:I think it's difficult for folks, especially when things are, when you're passionate about something, to take a step back Because we have this spirit of move forward. Push forward, keep advocating. Advocating to let us know tomorrow and I think that comes from our ancestral roots advocating we talk about Dr Martin Luther King, malcolm X and all the other people who have a strong advocate shut their mouth. They kept moving forward. That's what we've seen. We haven't, never seen those advocates rest.
Speaker 1:That's what we're used to as a community, exactly, and so I always think about Fannie Lou Hamer. Was she out in the streets? No, she was in the kitchen. She was feeding the people doing boycotts.
Speaker 1:And so your advocacy doesn't always have to be large, it doesn't always have to be like, be in quieter ways, and so that's why I was just like I need to understand when I can step in and step out, and sometimes advocacy can. It's about getting that biggest thing done, and that's not always the case, so smaller wins are equally important, yes, and so how do we focus If it's not going to be a big win? What's a small win? What's a small way that we can contribute? Because I think we're led to believe especially right with this Western mindset that rugged individualism, picking yourself up by your bootstraps, you have to be the loudest one in the room, and that's not the norm, especially for communities of color. We don't have that privilege, and so we're just used to grinding in the norm, especially for communities of color. We don't have that privilege, and so we're just used to grinding in the background, getting stuff done Right. Well, the big stuff also is being tended to, and so how do you make that shift?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I would love to hear more stories about the stuff in the background.
Speaker 1:Those are the ones we don't see. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I always say the background stuff is the glue to how everything works. My next question is how can providers be better equipped to recognize and respond to racial trauma and bias in their practices?
Speaker 1:Fantastic question. Y'all ain't going to like me for this, but I'll say it. You need to understand where your discomfort is. You need to understand, as a provider, where your discomfort is and address it.
Speaker 1:Racial trauma is not personal, right? Somebody's experiencing racial trauma, not personal, right? Somebody's experiencing racial trauma, the environment's response to it is to shut it down. But that is their lived experience, that is their response, that is their pain, and so I've seen providers be really, I'll say the thing take that personal and it's not against them, it's against the system that is causing this distress. And then they'll be right, authoritative or punitive in response. So you're just compounding that person's trauma more by treating them as if they are the problem. And so what I would ask is where are your limits, where are your discomforts and how do you be more comfortable being uncomfortable? Because that discomfort is where we learn.
Speaker 1:And the other thing is training. I know some people err on the side of right. Give you more training in order to understand, that's great. And then how do you put that into practice? Because taking a training is one thing and being aware of something existing, yet how are you putting that training into practice? How are you challenging then your comfort zone.
Speaker 1:And so those are the two ways that I would say, like, the first and foremost, please don't take it personal, because it's not about you, it's about the person in pain. And how do you then get exposed to different racial identities, characteristics, customs, practices, so that way you have a better understanding of the person in front of you, being careful not to use them as your teacher, because that is not the client's role. It is your job to understand that person's lived experience, but not use them as a teacher. And the other thing is please don't ask clients to explain their pain, because what they're experiencing is real From a Western clinical perspective. Black and Brown people are made to justify their trauma, justify their pain, justify their experience, and so I would challenge you not to do that either with their lived experiences. It's real for them. You don't have to validate it in order to say, ok, now I know it's real, and so that's. Those are the things that I would say.
Speaker 2:You talked about training, and so that's. Those are the things that I would say. Other to understand the internalized racism, the impact of how, not necessarily what the system is done, but how that person is digesting it and what does it? Mean to them their self-esteem and their way of life.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be too specific, because I know there are a number of trainings and a variety of resources, what they think in the continuum of understanding when it comes to race, but it gives them when it comes to actually behaving towards people. This is what I do instead, because that perceived self and the actual self are sometimes two very different things, and when you're responding under stress, we tend to reach for what we know right, and so I like that, because then it shows you how to close the gap, and if you're part of an organization that does that kind of coaching, you have somebody walking with you on that. I thought that was neat, because it actually breaks down understanding of differences in a really cool way in terms of training and resources. Yeah, that could run the gamut.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a clinician myself, I found the best work is self as a therapist work.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:God yeah, because you know how you show up in those spaces and how you navigate those spaces.
Speaker 1:That's a good one. Thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do a lot of professional coaching. I know like you're very like a strong advocate for clinicians, providers, to do their own self-work. That's including self-care. You've been promoting that. And then also it's like a good therapist need a therapist.
Speaker 1:Yes, amen. Therapists need therapists too, and that self as a therapist work is a really great way to have someone walk alongside you while you're in that state of discomfort, because I always think of it like weightlifting right, you're tearing that muscle to build more, but you get a bigger, stronger muscle right. So doing that self as a therapist work is overall beneficial, not only to you but your clients as well.
Speaker 2:Do you have any example of where providers effectively act as advocates for clients within the system, like education, criminal justice system, housing? What made that advocacy impactful for clients?
Speaker 1:I think my favorite thing to really just admire are the providers that go to the Capitol and provide testimony.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Those are my favorites to see because you see real-time examples, first of all, of advocates, yet talking about real-time struggles that they're seeing in the community and bringing right into the space. And so I love those moments because there's advocacy at work In terms of in the school. I know one provider who is an absolute beautiful advocate on behalf of her, the students that she sees as a mental health provider and she will challenge the staff's perceptions on students of color and she will willingly take time to sit in some of those meetings and challenge their perspectives and their perceptions and say, nope, that's actually developmentally appropriate, that's okay.
Speaker 1:Nope, that actually wasn't a behavioral outburst, that was cultural. Nope. Why does right One kid get five days suspension and this one gets three? No-transcript, how did that translate? That kid can now come to school, which is a constant presence in his life. So now he's there, in that space, he can engage, and they're looking at him a little differently now. They're not criminalizing him, they're actually going. He's a person too, I think.
Speaker 2:With my own work in the criminal justice system, I've worked with many counties and one particular county. They don't try to know everything when it comes to advocating for students. They just get out of the way. Yep, because you know what we brought you in here to do what you do. We do what we do really well, not all counties do that.
Speaker 2:And we can work together and we can figure this out. There will be some mistakes made and sometimes we don't have all the parts that we need. Sometimes we don't have parents to be a part of the conversation, but we can talk to judges, we can talk to our supervisors and other probation officers. We can get the training that we need to advocate for, get people to look at. These are all children, especially in the juvenile justice system.
Speaker 2:Sometime. I think the system in general forgets that number one, the trauma that comes with being incarcerated, incarcerating a child. And number two is looking at that person who had maybe committed a crime. That just blows folks' mind, especially when it comes to, like, when you're hurting someone really bad or murder, and looking at them from a developmental lens, that this is a child who is going through this and assuming that, like when the children hurt someone or they take someone's lives, that it doesn't impact them deeply. And so you look at the work that, the things that they're doing, but not necessarily looking at who them from a developmental lens. That you know, although we want to say they thought that out, really they were really calculating.
Speaker 1:That is a very adult response to a child.
Speaker 2:yeah, that's an adult response to a child. Sometimes it doesn't like you can't change a sentence or anything like that, but you can also change the interventions that are going on in those facilities. People interact with those kids who commit those crimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and so being incarcerated as a child, that not only is a disruption developmentally, but that becomes a formative experience for them. Yes, and so if we can look at them through that context, I think the world will be just a little bit of a better place and understanding that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can really do some true reform work, but that's a whole nother story, that's a whole nother conversation.
Speaker 1:I won't go down that path.
Speaker 2:We talked a lot about community and system change. How do we build mental health systems that are more culturally responsive? Is community driven? Because, I think we only have. We have clinicians, but I think our field is getting narrower and smaller and smaller. So how can we do this from a community driven lens?
Speaker 1:I think the first thing is understanding what the community wants and need, not what we're thinking they want and need as a clinician, because they know exactly what they want and need. Yet our field, especially the way we're trained, is taught that we have this authoritative stance, this we. It's a top down thing that we tell you what we, what you need.
Speaker 2:We don't know everything.
Speaker 1:No, we don't know.
Speaker 2:Thank you Please introduce me to the clinician that knows everything.
Speaker 1:I'll wait.
Speaker 2:They're not even in the system because they know too much.
Speaker 1:Collaborating with community to understand what their needs are and then doing it. And it's not us telling them what to do, it's them telling us what they need and what we can do. Yet I'm a fan of grassroots efforts. I'm a fan of really sitting down at the table with community to understand, and so I regularly engage in different groups that are doing similar work in community to really understand what's happening. And then how do I make adjustments as a professional to then my work to meet community's needs in a better way. Oh, grassroots would be great. Yet the philanthropic sphere right now they like to fund hot button issues, and so I know mental health kind of had its peak in terms of nonprofit funding, and now it's like maternal mortality I don't know what next it is going to be. So, in terms of a funding aspect, I know that can be more challenging. Yet People can be creative. We can be creative and really have that conversation together, sitting down at the table and understanding what's happening.
Speaker 2:So let me break this down. So your mother, podcast host, clinician and grassroots, you be in the streets. I'll be in the streets. You be in the streets, easy to find.
Speaker 1:Because you be outside.
Speaker 2:The kids say she's outside working.
Speaker 1:Ripping and running.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love the grassroots work. I think it's so many powerful people doing so much amazing stuff. I mean, personally I've done a part of a project with grassroots people who are just providing the best of care out in the streets relationships, all the things that come with being grassroots and I'm also working with a system that's working with the grassroots organization. It's very powerful. The outcomes are like mind blowing.
Speaker 1:They're beautiful when you see what the outcomes are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to see that people are willing to lean forward and in their pain. It's like we can help too. Y'all don't have to take this on alone. We can jump in and we can be advocates, we can be peer mentors. We can get people in the program that can get to get the help that they need to. I think that's what I've learned with that. Collaboration is that's the most powerful way of doing community work is soliciting folks in the community who are open to getting better themselves and through their work of getting better themselves they reach out to others and invite others.
Speaker 2:You can really impact the community if you can make that a norm.
Speaker 1:It's really cool when it happens.
Speaker 1:And so I've tabled at mental health fairs, health-related fairs, and have seen the response in our Black community. It's been amazing and they're like, oh, I know somebody, oh, my church can, and so they're actually making the connections for us in terms of spreading the awareness that mental health care is okay and it's very much needed, and so I want to dispel that myth a little bit that Black people don't take mental health care is right, that's ugh, no, no. And I'm just like nope, I see it every day and I see people reaching out and so the response has been really beautiful and I think it's inspiring because they want a different way of being in this world. Yes, and they're wanting to address that trauma, that harm, that neglect, and they're saying, okay, got your card.
Speaker 1:I've had a very weird number of like connections made in the last six months from all these little events that I attend and I'm just like how did that person get my? Okay, hi, how can I help you? All of a sudden, I get a random email or I'm added to something and I'm like, oh, this is. I don't know where this came from, but I'm glad I got it.
Speaker 2:I know somebody. We always I know somebody who knows somebody. We always refer to the black mechanic in the shop. You gonna, if you talk to the black mechanic in the shop, they know how to get things done in an affordable way Yep, affordable way. And then it's also that relational aspect and once that person build the relationship and understand the needs of the community, then you get more referrals to that mechanic. Now you're super busy because you get more referrals, because you're doing quality work and you're doing relational work and you're honest about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what role do you think community-based organization play in bridging the gap between mental health services and marginalized communities?
Speaker 1:I think community organizations sit in a unique position to really draft their own version of community engagement. So a bigger hospital system might not necessarily be able to be able to serve or touch the community in the way that a community driven organization could, and so it looks different. And that is the role that excites me, because community orgs have the ability to be creative. They have a little flexibility in what they could do so they can infuse some imagination or some creativity into providing services. Again, I know services are not free, yet there's funding out there. So I want to be very clear. I understand, from a funding perspective, community organizations need to survive as well. Yet there are funding opportunities, both local and national, that exist in order to provide mental health care in unique ways that serve the community, and so it's not like it's not there. And so how do you then tap into those funding streams and just write a really fun, creative grant in order to be out in the community doing mental health work? Or, if you're a funder, how do you fund some of those programs? How do you give that money?
Speaker 1:But also I want to challenge funders is that sometimes that application process can be a barrier to receiving funding? I want to acknowledge the structural differences in terms of access there. Just because they have money doesn't mean it's easy to get, because that application process can be really tedious and not all community organizations have a grant writer. And if you're a grant writer, or if you do grant writing, how could you lend, how could you volunteer to be a grant writer for some of these community organizations, because I've done that as well as I can lend right four or five hours of my time to review your grant and make it stronger. I'm not asking for money, I just want to see you succeed, and so I want to acknowledge that too, that there's a disparity in the way funding happens in the nonprofit space that could fund these community organizations. They don't always have that knowledge, and so how do we bridge that gap?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like your all hands on deck approach, and I think we talk about climate. What do we need to do in this climate? Is means like, if you have a talent or something to offer, organization or anything, that's a good, a great form of advocacy, because it yields results and it builds relationships and it plays along within that system that we have, like that community work of we all have to jump in and help out. Here's the challenging part for a lot of folks Don't be doing too much, because you only have so much capacity, and then also make sure that those collaborations are great, are good collaborations too, and they're aligned with your mission, your vision. It's a lot of ways like when you're advocating, you can't just jump in and say, hey, I'm just going to pick somebody and here we go.
Speaker 1:I'm advocating.
Speaker 2:It's a way, it's a process and a way of doing those things. So what would you recommend is a good process of? If I want to become an advocate a community-based advocacy advocate and connect to an organization, what would be a couple? Give me three steps.
Speaker 1:Three steps. First of all, understand your ability, right your time, your bandwidth and what you can offer as an advocate. That's the first thing I'd say. Second, what are you passionate about? Because there are some things that we advocate on. That's a no-brainer, because it fits with our values, right With what we believe in and serving the populations in a way that doesn't infringe on their autonomy or their ability to make decisions. And so what are you passionate about? Because that also is going to fuel that fire as an advocate. And then, know your lane. I think as advocates, we sometimes have this mission creep and, like you said, we do too much. Is that what the organization or is that what the advocacy effort is asking of you? And so know your lane in terms of what are they asking me to do? Am I meeting that brief? Am I doing too much? Are my hands are in three different areas when they didn't ask me to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you come in and change in the organization.
Speaker 1:I'm going to build a board. That's not what they ask for. That's what I need to do. They ask for you to advocate.
Speaker 2:But if I have that talent, I should be doing that right.
Speaker 1:No, no, there's other people for that. Okay, how can public health departments and policymakers Uh-oh, this is going to be a long conversation integrate racial equity into mental health policy more meaningfully.
Speaker 1:First and foremost, are you as an organization or legislator out in the community hearing what the community is saying? Because this is that thing again. Where am I doing what I think this community needs or am I doing what the community is asking for? And I think that's a very clear distinction to make. And so are they out in community hearing what some of the struggles are, hearing those challenges and trying to write policy or procedures that actually address those things? Because sometimes there's a disconnect and so sometimes and I've seen it myself where I've been in the room with legislators and they're hearing but they're not really listening.
Speaker 2:I've been in the room with legislators and they're hearing but they're not really listening. And so do you think that, because I always reflect on this is this is my perception of what's going on, versus this person's capacity, ability to understand and wrap their head around the community that way? If that's not, again, it goes back to, if that's not, my lived experience and I am too busy doing other things and trying to fix other stuff. And I got to be in community too, I think, like from state legislator versus city county. So it's layers to this thing. So from a state legislation perspective, I don't know if they're going to be in the streets like that.
Speaker 1:I know my legislators are.
Speaker 2:Oh who? No, I'm just kidding. I was just saying you want me to name the ward.
Speaker 1:And so I think the first benchmark is do your legislators or representatives hold town halls to actually hear from their constituents? That's an easy thing to look up.
Speaker 2:You can Google it right now, so you're looking at your phone.
Speaker 1:Next question but again, you're elected to a very public role and so you're representing communities of people, and so that is part of the agreement when you're elected is to represent your constituents in the best way possible. So are we doing that? And so that's why I say are they out in community hearing what's happening? As far as, like, health departments, there is some ways that they could engage communities that they serve as well, like community roundtables. Are they having listening sessions? Are they going out in community and understanding what some of those challenges and successes are? Because it's not all about the hard stuff, it's about the wins too, and so are they doing that, and how are they representing all of the communities they serve? And so for me I would start there is have you talked to the people? And then, how are you writing those policies, those procedures, those laws? Where are these bills coming from, and do we have the right voices in the room for that?
Speaker 2:See, that's the tough part, is getting the right voices in the room, because, again, like in this climate, people are trying to figure out how to figure things out and there's a lot of misinformation and disinformation.
Speaker 1:And so how do you connect to what is I'll use the word real what? How do you connect to what's real, what's true, the facts?
Speaker 2:yeah, all right, what's your advice for our listeners? So we're wrapping this thing up, so we're going directly to our listeners. So, what is your advice do you have for our listeners who want to become more?
Speaker 1:active.
Speaker 2:Now, these are just regular old people too.
Speaker 1:So don't get under that clinical politician we're talking about.
Speaker 2:if I'm a regular old person who is very passionate, If. I'm a regular old person who is very passionate. How can I be more this message across around mental health or connecting to community agencies?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's hit on the people with lived experience. So, for people with lived experience, your voice matters and it has the power to create change. I want to say that first and foremost. For people that want to advocate, I would say, first and foremost, you don't need to go out and reinvent the wheel. There is probably an organization or some kind of group that exists for what you're passionate about, and so find that.
Speaker 1:The reason why I say that is because sometimes we think in silos our experience, our experience and then we go and create something, but then there's two or three organizations that are also in the room doing the same thing. And so, if you don't have the bandwidth to create something yourself that is unique and serve the community, join a coalition or join a group. And so I say that because, again, preserving bandwidth, it is hard managing an advocacy campaign on your own shoulders. Yes, that's a lot of work. That could be a full-time job easily, and so connect with others that are doing it. Not only do you get to share your lived experience, yet you then get connected to this community right, and that ultimately benefits you Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I hear a lot of people in the community who have these letters behind their names or have experience with actually doing it and they often feel pushed to the side or talked down to at times and just not feeling valued, their voice not feeling valued. So you talk about like, how do you connect to a community that a community organization or advocacy group that will be willing to hear different perspectives from someone who may not have the education or the professional training to be able to like make things go, move forward? How do you find your space?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is one of those times where you just have to read the room and see if this is the space that you belong in. There isn't a foolproof way of vetting groups. You just have to jump in and see if this is my space. Do we all have equal, say? Do we all have the same values? Are we all working on the same agenda? Equals, say Do we all have the same values? Are we all working on the same agenda?
Speaker 1:And I will be the first one to tell you I've been part of groups where I joined and I thought we were doing this mission together, and then turns out right, five people had five different ideas of what we were doing in this space, and so I was just like, oh, this is not how I want to spend my time. I have not. I'm not shy about quitting something that is not going to benefit the mission in the long run. I will remove myself from a space if it turns out that it's different, and so that is just, I think, the other side to advocacy that sometimes people don't talk about, because they all want to see the wins, the big things happen. Yet it is really sometimes about navigating those personalities in that group as well, and are we all here for a collective purpose?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so how, like you're at MCW, bring this up. You could say about the I can't really answer that.
Speaker 1:Okay, I have the option to plead the fifth.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you have and I've done some research on this program. The program that you have and I forgot the name of the community but it's soliciting the university, which is a larger system in Milwaukee, and community members. They have worked together to collaborate to build this thing to get to address some of the disparities in mental health and medical health and physical health in their community. Have you heard of that program and it seems like on paper it seems like a great program that they're trying to bridge the gap between community people who have been doing work in the community for a long time to people who want to serve the community, those younger health care professionals. So that seems like a model that on paper it seems very like effective. But making things work like this takes time and trust and a whole bunch of trust relationships.
Speaker 1:I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Is it thrive, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I've spent pockets of time in Milwaukee and I am always honored to be in community spaces with Black leaders who are doing some amazing work in that city I just floored. I learn every time I'm there. I think the intersection that you're talking about is how do we balance being a large system and creating something in community that is uniquely for community?
Speaker 2:Am I understanding that right? Yes, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, so glad I didn't have to plead the fifth. Okay, that is a struggle, that is a dance, and I say that because a system has its own agenda, priorities, funding, metrics, all of the things that they want to think about it in terms of. That is actually informing what the space is going to be and how it benefits community. And so how do you, as an organization, do that without infringing on their autonomy, their desires, what they want to create in that space? So that's the piece that I keep thinking about. And who really makes the decisions in that kind of collaboration? Is it a 50-50 collaboration? Does the system have more of a decision? Does the community have more of a decision in terms of what the space will be for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. Again, it's one of those things where people have to learn from each other If you truly want to do it in a way that that's equitable, that everybody benefits from it and granted, like, the university benefits from it and the community can benefit from it too. And I think it's complicated, it's very complicated. It's very complicated because that whole the historical piece and trust has those barriers have to be overcome there is a reason why Black community does not trust systems because they've been inherently designed to disenfranchise Black communities.
Speaker 1:So that's why I say how is this conversation happening and how are the decisions being made? Because that's really important to fostering trust and relationship building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be good to have. Maybe have someone on and talk about.
Speaker 1:Thrive, not it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I'm just sitting in this seat for, just temporarily, this show. I'm planning on getting right back to the background again. Then, unless I'm asked to sit forward, but I think it'll be a great conversation. Dahlia of Denver, denver health, is doing like something similar. I actually went out and visit them like maybe four or five years ago and they said those were tough conversations.
Speaker 2:And even talking to some people who are close to thrive and trying to build, they said those were tough conversations. And even talking to some people who are close to Thrive and trying to build, they said these are hard conversations and they're not ducking the conversation. It's like, okay, we're going to sit in a room, we're going to have the conversation, but, like you said, it's after the conversation. How do people walk away from those conversations? Do they go, walk away from the conversation, feel like, hey, is the same old status quo? Or they feel like, man, this is a little bit different. It's hard but it's different. It's a different type of vibe. And at Dahlia of Denver, with Denver Health, yeah, they're not perfect and it's not going to be a perfect system, because you're going to have some people who were hurt way more than others.
Speaker 2:But I love what they're doing. They're addressing those disparities. So for his hunger they have a garden, a community garden, that anybody could roll up to and just get what you need.
Speaker 2:And that garden is flourishing. And then they have this aquaponic facility where they're growing, they have tilapia and they're using the tilapia's waste to fertilize the soil and then they give away tilapia, those meals. And so I was like man. And they have a school, associated dentistry and all those disparities under one roof. I was like how do y'all do all of that and have a community space that anybody can roll up in and have tea or do whatever? So they took something where it took a traditional Black neighborhood, that a space where it was a lot of commercialized movement and very active in the I want to say, 60s, 70s and 80s, but it went dead with economics that it just couldn't be sustained. But they took that space and asked permission to use that space and had to work hard to be invited into that space. That was they did like from like from my interview and visiting that site. They did some amazing work but they still say it's a lot of people that don't trust us still and we're OK with that.
Speaker 2:And we have to sit in that space and we have to earn our right to be heard in this community. We're not coming in just to bulldoze people. Hey, here's what we got to offer. We're leaning into the elders, into the community, create a space for the elders, which I thought was very phenomenal because elderly people have a lot to say.
Speaker 1:There's a lot to share there.
Speaker 2:A lot to say. And they have that historical perspective.
Speaker 1:I like that you brought up that point, though. Those conversations are hard for both sides of the table as an organization and for the community and one of the first lessons I learned in this advocacy space was that the community lives in that community. The organization, at the end of the day, goes home and it most often is not in that community. That was a profound like. I still remember sitting in the room hearing these community advocates talking to an organization and going. You get to go home, but this is our lives. This is where we live, work, play. My kids go to school right down the block, so you don't know this neighborhood like we do, and that has stuck with me ever since. I think that happened in like 2016.
Speaker 1:And so, to still recall it so fresh, that has always been something that I've thought about is that, as a mother, as an advocate in my community, where is the give in understanding here? Because sometimes those conversations do get really hard, and so as an organization you have a responsibility to still sit in that space and have this hard conversation because the community is willing to have it.
Speaker 2:And also the economic disparities it's like are you really you're in the community? Are the people, the restaurants in the community? Who's setting up your? Who's doing the construction in the community? Are you putting money into the community? Are you putting money into revitalizing the community? You?
Speaker 2:know, are you addressing those issues? Because when you talk about providing services, people are willing to provide the services but they're not willing to do the extra stuff. Build the relationships. Hey, we don't have a good grocery store in our community. Can we have a community organization or a business owner who's willing to grow healthy food, open up a shop? How can we support somebody who's doing that type of work? How do we open the pathway for a caterer to come in and bring culturally responsive, good, healthy food? A lot of people are doing great work around doing modification to soul food. That's what I'm all about.
Speaker 1:I know and it's so good. I love when organizations take that into account in their policies and practices is that when you're investing in these initiatives, there's more to think of beyond that initial idea that you have with community. It is about spending dollars in that community as well, and so if you, as an advocate in your organization, want to look at that, where are we spending our dollars when it comes to catering or the holiday parties or any kind of other recognition things? Where are you putting those dollars?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think in this climate that's very important, with the economy going the way that it's going, I think, spending your money in those communities of color and we talked about the rural communities even those Black-owned businesses that are in the community, making sure that they are sustainable are able to continue to provide services, goods and services to those community members in a way that is reachable.
Speaker 2:You don't have to get on a bus and go like three, four miles to get what you need. You have what you need inside your community, just like any other community. Get what you need. You have what you need inside your community, just like any other community is. Yeah, I'd rather go ahead shopping at a mom and pop store than just driving all the long ways to find just a pair of socks a pair of socks.
Speaker 2:Yes, they might be a little bit fancier, but I'll take that I'll take them too Great conversation. Anything you would like to add or leave with our audience or providers or anybody who's listening to this?
Speaker 1:Think about what your impact is. I think, especially now, sometimes we can have a pretty narrow view, yet we each have an impact in our own way as individuals, and when we get together, we now form a group of individuals with the same idea and same agenda. I want to leave with a note of hope, because I know, with a lot of noise in the world right now, it feels pretty hopeless. What could you do to make an impact? And also, how do you take care of yourself during these chaotic times, because that's important as well. How are you taking care of yourself?
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for sharing the microphone. Thank you. I will be going back to my normal duties, unless Joanna invites me to do this again then I'll jump on again or share my expertise, but this is a great conversation. I got to learn a little bit more about I see you almost pretty much every day and I've learned more in this segment than I have just joking around with you throughout the week. So thanks so much for sharing. Thank you, I appreciate you.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you. We hope you enjoyed this conversation on Bridging the Gaps Reimagining Opioid Recovery podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to hear more stories about hope in recovery and see the links in our bio for more information on the fellowship. The links in our bio for more information on the fellowship and resources in our community.
